North Yorkshire Moors Railway – Child Unfriendly?
UPDATE: Since I made this post there have been a number of replies from both volunteers and employee’s of the railway both on this site, through email and on other forums. There has also been a very positive and polite comment made by NYMR’s Retail and Customer Services Manager Helen Webb who also apologised on behalf of the North Yorkshire Moors Railway and I’m happy to say that I’ve accepted her apology and have assured her that we will visit this wonderful railway again. I also received a less positive comment from Roger Melton of the LNER Coach Association. In the light of all those comments I would like to make clear a number of issues that may not have been made as well as they could have been in my original post (Which remains below for reference)
- First of all (and I believe I did make this clear in my original post) we did not so much have an issue with the rules, rather than in the way they were enforced: which we felt to be both unhelpful, aggressive and rude.
- This unfortunate experience was the fault of two employees/volunteers of the NYMR. My family and I except that the majority of employees are friendly, polite and helpful. Its only fair that in the interest of balance I mark out two such employees from this particular visit. First the guard who allowed my nieces to “Inspect his tickets.” Second the staff at the Grosmont Station Gift shop who were especially helpful in helping my mother find a number of gifts.
- Over the years my family and I have made many visits to the North Yorkshire Moors and it’s only fair to point out that this was the first and only unpleasant experience we’ve had over a period of over two decades. All in all that’s not a record the NYMR should be ashamed of. It is a very nice railway, staffed by (a majority) of very nice, friendly and helpful staff.
- Finally, this is a wonderful Railway doing some wonderful work and I encourage you to visit it (Though please do take care to read the notices about pushchairs even if you are caught in a thunderstorm)
Original Post:
I don’t like to be negative about any heritage railway, especially one with a great track record like the North Yorkshire Moors – but the experience my family and I had their last friday has put me off visiting them for some time.
North Yorkshire Moors Railway
My Brothers John, Stephen, his two daughters (aged 2 and 4) his partner and my parents (Grandma and Grandpa) visited the railway last friday (21st, August 2009) and bought day runabout tickets for us all (£125.00). The trip got away to a good start and the kids we’re entertained looking out of the window and playing “Ticket Inspector” We got off at Pickering for lunch and while there the heavens opened, hail and thunder and lightning – the lot! So we made our way back to the station to get the next train out, being in a rush we dived in the first carriage we could find and we’re heading for the nicely preserved teak Gresley coaches when a figure in an oil stained orange hi-vis clothes came storming through the carriage, put his arm across the passage way to block us and abruptly declared “You can’t go in there”
Obviously we we’re a bit taken aback by this… apparently it turns out you can’t take pushchairs through the Gresley coaches because of the risk of damage… ok we understand that these are priceless heritage coaches but his manner was just downright rude. “you’ll have to take it outside to the guard’s van, these chairs cost £10,000 each I can’t have you damaging them” (Please note there’s still a massive rain storm outside) Had he been nice about it, explained it in a better manner he may not have got our backs up… at that very moment a guy walks two wet dogs into the carriage followed by a photographer carrying a tripod on his back that clattering against the coaches walls.
“We can’t take a pushchair through, but wet dogs are ok?” my brother asked. “I can carry it through for you” he relents. “What if you damage the seats?” I ask, “I won’t” he replies.
Its not the reasoning that annoyed us, we understand that the coaches are priceless (though it’s somewhat annoying that the NYMR and the LNER Coach Association can’t trust us) and need to be treated with care. It was his rudeness that aggravated us… like he was on a one man mission to save the coaches from a gang of vandals. His whole manner was aggressive and as we sat down a number of other customers commented on his behaviour too.
We decided to get off at Grosmont and have a look around the shed, I went to the guards van to pick up the pushchair and met a young woman looking after a young boy sleeping in a push chair. “Are you traveling in here?” I asked, “yes!” she replied. I soon discover that because she was unwilling to wake her child up and dismantle the pushchair the same Jobsworth that had caused us offence had relegated this poor mother and child to the guard’s van… despite the fact that there were a number of mark 1 coaches in the trainset.
It only takes one idiot to spoil a day out. It takes two to completely ruin it!
After walking around the shops and sheds at Grosmont we headed back to the station. It’s started raining again now and Anna, the 2yr old, is fast asleep in the pushchair. The walk has cleared our tempers and we’d almost let the “Pushchair” incident drop. We have 30mins to wait for the next train back to Whitby and so decide to take refuge from the rain in the Grosmont Station Cafe…
“You can’t bring that in here!”
I kid you not!
“Why?”
“Fire regulations, they cause an obstruction”
We look around the empty Cafe, observing the total lack of any other customers
“But there is no-one else in here!”
“Fire regulations. You’ll have to sit outside”
“It’s raining”
Blank look from the Cafe staff
We march out of the Cafe, into the rain and down the road to the Hazelwood House Cafe who are only too happy to welcome us, our dangerous pushchairs and our custom.
There are a great many good and friendly staff at the North Yorkshire Moors Railway… but it only takes two socially inept, rude and discourteous jobs-worths to ruin a day. My brother his partner and his children will not be visiting any time in the future and based upon that particular day I don’t think I could recommend the North Yorkshire Moors Railway to any other parents either.
Martin Paling
August 27th, 2009 at 11:27 am
Hello Martin, I am so sorry to hear of your day from hell. I must admit I would be very upset, especially having parted with £125.00 to be treat like that. Have you complained, because if you haven’t, it might be worth dropping them a line. If management don’t know how their staff are behaving, they can’t rectify the matter. To be treated shoddily was bad enough, but to drop on a sod of a day weather wise as well, my God man…I would still be getting over it.
Best wishes, Dave
August 27th, 2009 at 11:52 am
Hi Dave,
Hope you are well, loved your “vintage” photos
I think we will have to write and complain – just perhaps when I’m a little more calm! It’s a real shame because it’s one railway i’ve always recommended to non-railway friends.
Cheers, Martin
August 27th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Martin
I hope you don’t mind but I posted a link to your blog onto Ian Riley’s “The Works” forum as a gentle reminder to all railways about looking after their passengers . As a Dad of two myself I’d want to be treated with a little respect and offered some help
http://amutek.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=476 . You may need to be registered to get to read the thread but the NYMR have already picked up on this
August 27th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Hi Martin,
I don’t mind at all! Ultimately as Dave suggest I really ought to get in touch with the NYMR too, so I don’t mind them being pre-warned.
It really is vital that railways nurture their younger visitors, especially those with children!
PS Great photos on your fototopic website!
August 27th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
[...] because I had thought the NYMR to be one of the best railways in the country. For the full story head on over to Railnuts, the excellent railway community site run by Pete [...]
August 28th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Not quite the same, but symptomatic of the same sort of attitude on the big railway:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/8223262.stm
Maybe you can go on stage, you could win an award!
Seriously, please complain, and please share their response with us. Without people like you highlighting such problems, things will never improve
September 2nd, 2009 at 12:10 am
As one of the owners of the carriage concerned I’d like to point out that we have seen damage to the fabric of our expensive seats on a number of occasions, and the carriage has notices in all the entrances asking passengers not to bruing them on. Perhaps these particular passengers felt they disd not apply to them, but I don’t thin it was unreasonable for the employee to attempt to enforce them. I can’t comment on the problem with the tea rooms other than to point out that Fire regulations are something imposed by outside bodies. They are compounded by the fact that we now live in a litiginous society where people are happy enough to complain about these sort of restrictions but are willing and eager to seek compensation for the slightest accident, even if it is their own fault and that puts the staff in establishments such as this on perpetual guard.
September 2nd, 2009 at 8:57 am
Hello Martin,
Having read your posting, I was compelled to respond. The Railway take a great pride in offering an enjoyable day out for everyone, and both our paid staff and volunteers alike are generally delighted to help out in any way they can. I was saddened to read about your experience and would like to offer sincere apologies on behalf of the Railway.
Obviously in this instance we have failed you – and I can assure you that the individuals concerned will be dealt with. With your permission, I would also like to use your posting as a real example of ‘how not to do it’ with the aim of making all staff understand the impact that their behaviour can have.
I do hope that you will have an opportunity to visit the Railway again when hopefully your experience will be much better.
Kind regards,
Helen Webb, Retail and Customer Services Manager
September 2nd, 2009 at 9:10 am
Hello Martin,
I am very sorry to hear about the experiences that you received while at the NYMR. I have no doubt that both members of staff were correct in what they said, but I agree they should have handled the situations better.
I a can assure you that the vast majority of us are not all like that. We enjoy working on the railway and generally is shows in how we talk to our passengers.
I also think that you should report the incident to the management, contact details on http://www.nymr.co.uk.
Gary
September 2nd, 2009 at 11:28 am
@ Roger Melton : “Perhaps these particular passengers felt they disd not apply to them, but I don’t thin it was unreasonable for the employee to attempt to enforce them.”
Quite nicely sums up the lack of respect for customers?
These particular passengers, we’re caught in a sudden and unexpected ferocious hail and thunderstorm. These particular passengers we’re dealing with two small children. These particular passengers in their haste to shelter from the storm missed the signs and did not assume that the rules they had so erroneously missed did not apply to them.
These particular passengers also understand the historic nature of these coaches and the care, attention and money spent on them as Some of these particular passengers have also in the past donated money to the LNER Coach Association in the past. What These particular passengers did not appreciate was the aggressive and rude tone in which they were spoken to and the suggestion that they disembark the train in a full thunderstorm to reload the pushchairs.
As for you comments about the tearoom – thankyou so kindly for tarring us with the same brush by which you tar those who make petty litigious complaints.
As a post-note: had we all been burned to death in the empty cafe during a thunderstorm due to the dangerous nature of our pushchair the NYMR wouldn’t have had to worry about any litigation… only with what to do with our ashes.
September 2nd, 2009 at 11:38 am
@ Gary :
Thank-you for your comment. I appreciate that the majority of staff and volunteers at the NYMR are very friendly and positive. In the heat of writing this post I should have made it more clear. I think it would only be right of me to edit the post to reflect this.
Thankyou for the link I’ll send a message in now that tempers have calmed a little!
Best Wishes,
Martin
September 2nd, 2009 at 11:50 am
@ Helen :
Dear Helen,
Many thanks for your helpful and positive comment on this post. (It’s a shame it’s been somewhat tainted by the response from Roger Melton of the LNER Coach Association)
Please feel free to use the text for the purposes you mentioned. However I hope you do convey to both employees and volunteers that with the exception of these two individuals we found everyone to be polite, helpful and friendly – particular note should be made of the guard who allowed my nieces to “Check his tickets for inspection”. I hope you also understand that It’s not an issue with the rules per se, but the manner and spirit with which they were enforced.
Having had two weeks to “cool off” over the matter I’m sure we will visit again, our family we has visited many times before and I fondly recall visits I made with my parents as a child, My fiancee also has fond memories of the railway and only two months ago emailed the NYMR to enquire about wedding reception facilities.
Given your response I think it’s only fair that I edit this post to better reflect the NYMR’s position and your positive comment.
Best wishes and Thanks,
Martin
September 2nd, 2009 at 12:25 pm
[...] some responses on the post I wrote about the unpleasant experience my family and I had at the NYMR. Some very positive response from “Gary” a volounteer/employee of the railway and from [...]
September 2nd, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Hi Martin,
Many thanks for your response, and for updating the post. I was really pleased to hear that you had a positive experience with other members of the team, and we’ll look forward to welcoming you aboard soon!
Kind regards,
Helen Webb, Retail and Customer Services Manager
September 2nd, 2009 at 8:34 pm
I have to take issue withn your comments regarding my reply.
Firstly, I did not condone or criticise the manner in which the Guard dealt with the matter because I wasn’t there to see how he approached it – I have heard his side of the story and he maintains that he was firm but polite and that you refused to cooperate; he is upset that the incident seems to have been blown out of all proportion – so there are two sides to the story. What I do say is that he was doing his job correctly by attempting to prevent damage to the coach by someone who was prepared to ignore the signs requesting that push chairs are not taken into the carriage. Respect works two ways and you don’t seem to been showing much for the fabric of the carriage that took many thousands of volunteer hours and many thousands of pounds of their money to restore.
As for the tea-room, I did not tar you with any brush – I merely pointed out why the rules in question may be in place and why the staff may feel they are obliged to enforce them.
September 2nd, 2009 at 10:09 pm
@ Roger:
You know its a real shame that you decided to come here and post in such a negative manner. I’ve not made an official complaint to the NYMR, I’ve not demanded a refund or compensation, I’ve edited my post to better reflect the NYMR and it’s hard working staff and volunteers. Yet you seem intent on carrying on and in your first post here you accused my family of (I paraphrase) “feeling the rules did not apply to them” as if we considered ourselves some form of royalty. That simply is not the case.
If you’re going to allow the public to travel in these historic and priceless coaches you have to accept that from time to time things are not going to go to plan and these misunderstandings occur… and that you are ultimately dealing with paying customers regardless of the cost of the coaches. What counts is how you deal with paying customers when these unfortunate situations occur – in this case it’s my belief that we were dealt with poorly.
I’ve now spoken to my brother and he tells me we entered the Buffett car first (not a Gresley) and then were apprehended on our way into the Gresley.
You say the Guard says we refused to co-operate? I fail to see how?
Yes we may have questioned the rules (is that considered refusing to co-operate?) but only because we had failed to notice the posters in the first place, which obviously we regret but again I cite the extreme weather, we also questioned how two large wet dogs would do any less damage and we we’re not too happy at being told to disembark to carry our pushchair to the guards van in a thunderstorm either.
Once he made the rules most abruptly clear we abided by them. We returned to the Buffet car. At what point did we not show respect for your carriage?
You know I accept that he might have seen us seemingly ignoring your notices and so rushed full steam ahead, I can understand now how that might have set him up for being so abrupt and rude.
You say the guard is upset? I bet his day at the NYMR didn’t cost him £125?
Well I don’t like upsetting anyone, and for that I apologise. I wonder if he might do the same, Helen Webb has my email and postal address i’d be happy to hear from him, perhaps next time I visit we can all catch up and except that tempers on both sides we’re unintentionally stoked?
September 2nd, 2009 at 10:36 pm
[...] You can read all the comments here [...]
September 3rd, 2009 at 12:32 am
This is so ridiculous that it could be made up!
Good to see you got an apology and that your not after a refund (good call!)
Daft that wet dogs are fine but pushchairs are not!
I think the chap that owns the coach needs to cool down, this is obviously a case of rudeness not of not following rules/respect.
PS found your site after searching for TPO recordings!
September 3rd, 2009 at 11:32 am
My experience on the SVR who do not have notices on their vintage stock has usually been one of helpfulness . station staff have usually guided us to the brake van and helped load the pushchairs and buggies before guiding us to nearby available seats . on alighting again , doors are opened for us and help is on hand to unload buggies . Traveling with a young family is stressful enough (i’ve got 2 under the age of three) so something small can make a very big difference to your enjoyment of the day . I have sympathy for those carriage restorers having known Richard Gunning of the SVR LNER carriage fund for many years
September 3rd, 2009 at 11:42 am
Hi Martin,
The experience on the SVR certainly sounds very different to the one we had on the NYMR. But I’m pretty sure now having had contact from the NYMR that it was a one off experience and like most other railways things occasionally go wrong.
I do have sympathy with the coach restorers, they do an excellent job – the workmanship on the coaches we saw was excellent both inside and out. My father in particular has been tracking their progress for a while with regular visits to the NYMR.
Unlike loco restorers I suspect that they get less attention than they deserve too.
September 3rd, 2009 at 9:47 pm
Hi Martin,
I am sorry that you felt the request not to proceed further was rudely put and for this mis-understanding but, for the sake of accuracy, the Buffet Car is a Gresley. The two non-Gresley’s were the maroon Mark 1s at the front of the train. Also it was stated that a sum in excess of £10000 PER COACH had been spent on the seats. It would actually have been nearer to £30000.
The reference to dogs is a red-herring as they tend not to have sharp edges as they pass through coaches.
September 3rd, 2009 at 10:40 pm
Hi Dave,
Thanks for your comment!
The Buffet car we sat in had blue formica tables and stand alone chrome frame seats and faux blue leather upholstery. I didn’t realise it was a Gresley?
Also we were were told that each seat cost £10,000.
Also pushchairs tend not to have sharp edges – as sharp edges tend to cut childrens inquisitive fingers. In regards to the Pushchairs and in the name of experimentation – if I had a few thousand quid i’d quite happily like to see what damage I could do to those chairs and pay for any damages if I succeded, it just doesn’t seem likely to me. But that’s another matter IMO. The real issue for our family here was the tone in which we were addressed.
I’ve made my peace with the NYMR!
September 4th, 2009 at 11:09 pm
Hi Martin just got back from two shifts at NYMR Grosmont MPD and read
about your ( Encounters ) I’m saddened by it of course and sympathize
with you.
I’ve only done four days voluntary work and travelled once to Pickering by
train so can’t really comment on staff attitudes, however those I have met have been very friendly and helpful.
But no matter where we go these days we will always encounter the odd
‘Jobs worth’ or two sadly. But none of us are perfect are we ? and it seems to have been sorted amicably.
So lets hope the matter can be laid to rest now, choose who’s right or wrong.
September 6th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Hi Gerry,
Hope your shift went well, I see from your fototopic site that you once fired Silverfox!
Thanks for your comment. After speaking to a number of people at the NYMR i’m sure this was a one of thing. A matter of crossed wires, tempers and errors. Though I do think the NYMR need to rethink their policy on pushchairs at the Grosmont Cafe, I visited the Battlefield lines Shakerstone station cafe the other day… not enough room to swing a rat in their never mind a cat and they had no problem with our pushchair!
I hope you have very many more great days working at the NYMR and look forward to hearing all about it on Railnuts!
Cheers,
Martin
September 14th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
I don`t feel like going there. Doesn’t sound so great
September 14th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
oops that was a bad typo! Edited sh*t to shift!
February 21st, 2010 at 10:21 pm
Hiya, just read your artice with interest. The attitude of the staff you were unfortunate enough to encounter on your visit sadly does not surprise me.
There are a large number of staff, either employed by the NYMR on the payroll, or as volunteers, who are, in every sense of the word, “Jobsworths”If ‘That’s Life!’ was still running on TV, the NYMR would probably feature every other week.
There appears to be a growing element of unfriendly and ‘anti-visitor’ personnel at the NYMR, especially when it comes to railway enthusiasts, and even more specifically, photographers.
The NYMR has over the last few years, demonstrated this with consumate ease, and how they maintain the ability to attract any visitors at all, is beyond my comprehension.
It saddens me to write this, as I am a shareholder of the NYMR, and I am deeply embarrassed to be associated the the railway when I read comments like the ones above.
The sooner there is a change at the very top, the better. The sooner the poison dwarves are expelled from this glorious heritage line, the sooner it can begin to re-establish a reputation that it can genuinely be proud of.